Pinned Wipe the slate clean #Nolimits2016

    This site uses cookies. By continuing to browse this site, you are agreeing to our Cookie Policy.

    • Re: Wipe the slate clean #Nolimits2016

      TF2274_r.2.0 wrote:


      Why do we need specific alpha values for each prop? Why not just, "if you can't see the prop, it's invisible".

      Because people argue about whether they can see it.
      This is just a reference standard that can be trotted out for a less subjective comparison and checking of a propping.
      The propping has to be at least as visible as that sample.

      Hopefully differently adjusted player's screens won't wreck the idea.
    • Re: Wipe the slate clean #Nolimits2016

      One rule /needs/ to be added.

      -"You cannot setup your props as such that it adds more kickdoors than the house has without props."

      Why you ask? Because theirs a way to make a mansion setup have 5 kickdoors instead of 3. That means you pay 7,500 for kickdoor rather than 4500. When the base itself is already op as it is and nearly impossible to get a cuff if being defended. And let's be honest, most cops won't kick the door of a mansion anyways, this just is asking for eco inflation and plant camping.
    • Re: Wipe the slate clean #Nolimits2016

      Eldrun wrote:


      One rule /needs/ to be added.

      -"You cannot setup your props as such that it adds more kickdoors than the house has without props."

      Why you ask? Because theirs a way to make a mansion setup have 5 kickdoors instead of 3. That means you pay 7,500 for kickdoor rather than 4500. When the base itself is already op as it is and nearly impossible to get a cuff if being defended. And let's be honest, most cops won't kick the door of a mansion anyways, this just is asking for eco inflation and plant camping.


      I have been sensitive to this 'rule' ever since TF stopped Veg making a couple of extra doors in the Big Ball apts at Linesse a year ago. There was an easy addition in the Spiral Stair building apts too.
      Two things come to mind from your post though;
      1) Kickdoor is too expensive
      2) The type of AFKing and 'plant camping' we see [usually behind a zillion locks to keep the peasants out] hasn't resulted in crime levels enabling kickdoor.

      So, I see it that a player gets a bit of a kick out of rigging props in such a way as to thumb his nose at the cops - even though there was no realistic likelyhood of a bust anyway.

      Recently I did a kickdoor. The player had 23000 crime. IIRC I got $2700 and spent $1500. Good thing he was behind only ONE door.
      I have a sympathy for cops being able to 'do their duty', but the structure is flawed currently. Extra doors probably won't materially affect the outcomes. Let's hope that the 'new' plugins/mods we keep hearing about aren't far away.

      Otherwise, perhaps we revist the crime circles/lines, costs, crime levels, and turn the clock back.

      [PS. your topic not forgotten, just let the experiment run its course. Let's hear some statistics from defeated cops.]
    • Re: Wipe the slate clean #Nolimits2016

      Well I'm gonna cut a few things short and make the plugin go live as soon as I get the rest of the code tested and working.

      That means prop handling code, and the old jobs that I just re-added. The event system could use some testing as well I suppose.

      I'll hold up on the gang system.

      I just don't want to get this plugin permanently up, and have it be completely broken.
    • Re: Wipe the slate clean #Nolimits2016

      420alex wrote:


      we need the new "normal" for props to be understood by everyone in the higherup community as well (including eas)
      That way we dont put the new "normal" for props in houses
      and eas (or any other firm/assertive admin) pops in and deletes it


      we need #Sidezz to step up in this thread and either oppose us all, or try something new/see how it goes


      i don't fucking care how props go aslong as they're not movement restricting (crouch tunnels, jump tunnels, etc.) realistically, i would enforce an RP standard (houses cant look like a fucking nuke went off) but since it's hl2dm, i can't say i care because realistically, if someone REALLY wants to get at that ass, theyre gonna kick the fucking door down and start spraying at everything.
    • We can go back to experimenting with Prop rules again as the Furniture module is in :-


      TF2274: And when doing player props, use the "old" commands, but just also use sm_setpropowner on each prop once you're finished
      TF2274: sm_clearpropowner will make a prop go from being owned by a player to being a global map prop
      TF2274: Just don't use sm_setpropowner on furniture store and map decoration props otherwise you'll end up assigning the props to players

      Note......
      - let's try TF's suggestion for limits - 15 for 'normal' player and 20 for VIP.
      - this spawns static in midair /db_create models/money/goldbar.mdl 1
      When a lightweight prop is in midair you can 'unstatic' it with the gravgun right-click. A heavy prop might need to be 'thrown' by the gravgun.
      - remove the 1 from the end and this spawns and falls to the ground /db_create models/money/goldbar.mdl

      View the declared prop owner with /propowner


      Bob's /resize, /copy, /paste, /straight and /ramps aren't included (yet?).
    • Hey guys/gals/(?s) , hold off on the propping and keep it to a happy minimum until after the update currently scheduled for Thurs [rather than Fri].
      I have tossed away most of my prop experiments and some map props. That mole/blister on the VIP ought to go too :)

      Remember: we are attempting to assess the effects of props on the game.
      Unfortunately the RP model isn't SUFFICIENTLY developed or implemented yet.


      So, keep assessing what you think about the movement restrictors, but please keep an open mind about how the whole picture should work. Remember that over the years there have been aspects which have meant players sometimes make a bog load of crime, sometimes just sleaze along with modest crime.
      Let's get doorkick prices (and refunds) sorted.

      Here is an aspect that I find gets forgotten.

      There are more than a few factions of players. Some want RP to be Real-Life-like, others want it to be DM with pretty houses (ie no lag-producing crap, no movement impediment crap), others want it to be FUN. Etc Etc.

      Management appears to want to retain players.
      A large slice of players just LOVE to have props. And keep experimenting with the arrangements. [And it is a great pity that the player can not as yet do most of the design and work.]
      I have found during my recent experiment with a crop on new/newish players where I also added cops from their number, that not knowing any better they just lived with whatever situation the propping and criming produced. They have had a bog load of FUN and haven't been whinging. They haven't even thought about complaining - they haven't had the notion that they could :)

      It is time to remind every one to philosophically consider what prop rules are required.
      And it is time to make more players provide data [not neccessarily by posting here, but by being canvassed for their considered opinions. And that means a discussion with them - not a leading question being put to them.
    • I feel some Rules are needed for Props after playing the last week several hours each day as Cop.

      Gravity Doors I think need to not be a thing. Yes it's a cool concept but the way Props are being set up now is making it 10-20 times harder than it needs to be to cuff a player inside their home. The fact that we have everything working together in a way that compliments each other a little too well is just disheartening from a Cop perspective. The fact that a player can have a Resized One Way TV to shoot through at you while you have to crouch and use the Gravity Gun to open a Gravity Door is a bad design.

      I have nothing against Crouch Tunnels or Mazes or Resizes Blocking View of the player I'm trying to cuff at-least I can still fire back at him while traversing this Maze however as soon as a Gravity Door is introduced into the equation it becomes an almost one sided battle.

      Skill Cuffs are now a thing and they are kinda needed for some of these new house set ups to really have a chance at getting the criminal. However these set ups are also including Fences or Blast Walls in them as well making it nearly impossible to get a Skill Cuff off via Explosives forcing the cop to traverse this abomination of a house just to run into a door that he needs to swap to his Gravity Gun just to get past and not all of these things that require the Gravity Gun to be used can even be seen when hidden behind a Resized Prop.

      None of this is meant to be "Bitching" it's meant to be something to spark a discussion and hopefully get some things changed for the better in my opinion.

      As for -"You cannot setup your props as such that it adds more kickdoors than the house has without props." this needs to still be a Rule as well for obvious reasons. Though I will thank Cheesy for lowering the Kickdoor price even more and making it Viable again.

    • Breaking news from Syle:-
      Who will survive in America?: Enclosed balcony's must be able to be properly seen and shoot into. USE FENCES ONLY, Open space in balcony area is also required.


      He has updated the MOTD.

      This probably constitutes the First rule ratified here. [The visibility reference prop died with the Resize command coming in].


      In the interests of keeping prop count low currently [there IS need to do so]...although I suppose any freed-up props will get reallocated by the owner, sigh.
      This prop blocks nicely at Urban iirc. Centre it and players can not get past either end.
      1311 /db_create models/props_wasteland/interior_fence002d.mdl 1 2 sect no top wire
    • @Volar expect me to build the most fucked up bunker every time a little bit better as long as there is skill cuffing. Of course keeping care of the rules with this.

      What do you expect ? Why would anyone build a prop house if you just put a grenade inside and cuff him doofy

      Maybe some times classical old police work is needed, not just ONE overpowered cop terminating all crime - team up with some more to catch all Germans hiding in their bunkers
    • Mike wrote:

      @Volar expect me to build the most fucked up bunker every time a little bit better as long as there is skill cuffing. Of course keeping care of the rules with this.

      What do you expect ? Why would anyone build a prop house if you just put a grenade inside and cuff him doofy

      Maybe some times classical old police work is needed, not just ONE overpowered cop terminating all crime - team up with some more to catch all Germans hiding in their bunkers
      Did you even read what I wrote? Could care less about Props for the most part unless they include a Gravity Door to get to the player.


      #ButthurtNoLimits

    • Re balconies:- Maybe Syle will explain as it was his decision when originally pressured to allow players to block off the door and not to have to spend on locks on it. That was quite a concession.

      Historically, I do not know which came first - the approval to block all but ONE entrance/door, or the balcony thing. Either way there has been a concession made. The particular map being played at the time always has a bearing on the props discussions. When playing a given map it is not always obvious why a rule might exist. That is why i like the idea of recording reasons for, and examples of, rules in the Wiki to enhance what is seen in MOTD.

      Now that this Thread is on the move we could do with a continually updated consolidation Post where the ratifications and reasons are posted. I'll chat to Alex. That place's function would just be for easy reference to 'progress' in this Thread. For anything to be a RULE it has to appear in the MOTD in some fashion.
      [Even if it is a statement directing the reader to the Wiki.]

      Most/all/some decision threads die; or haven't you guys noticed?

      I would really REALLY REALLY like for sidezz not to insist on his stated preference for propping being adopted. See earlier post #29.
    • I kinda want to limit Mazes that are recolored Black as well since turning a prop 0 0 0 255 (Black) also makes the props Devoid of all light so Flashlights can't even help you navigate them. Like every other prop being Black isn't a bad thing but if all props are color coded Black it makes traversing said room completely irritable.

    • So after playing strictly Cop for 2 Weeks now(Roughly 100-150 Hours No AFK) and seeing players new home designs we need to Ban Resize as a Defensive Measure. Doing this will instantly stop Black Out Mazes for the most part. I'd go as far as to Request that Coloring an Entire Home Black to be Banned. Black as a color is fine when used in small quantities but I'm almost exclusively seeing Player Homes filled with nothing but Black Props. If Black didn't absorb Flashlight light and actually show up like all the other Colors it'd be fine but as it stands it renders Flashlights unusable thus giving a Major Defensive Measure to Players Homes when all coupled together and every-things Black.

      I'm fine with Crouch Tunnels BUT if there is a Crouch Tunnel then I NEED to be able to just as easily shoot the Rebel back. There is at the moment a home with a Prop Setup which you literally can't hit the other player while going through the Tunnel but they can Head Shot you. This is something I'd like banned. Crouch Tunnels wither need to be able to be shot at by both parties or the tunnels need to be made in a way that Neither player can shoot at the other.

      This isn't something that I'm just being pissy about because I can't cuff a Felon this is something that NEEDS to be addressed. When 4 Cops charging into a Room for 30+ minutes can't Cuff someone because their props make it almost impossible then something is wrong.

      I hope that others whom are either Cop and have tried or are Rebel and like breaking into places will speak up here and help to get this passed. There was a reason why we had so many Prop Rules in the past, not all of them were needed but some definitely were. I feel Resize needs to now be on the list for Defensive Banning. Black can go either way but at a minimum I want Black limited.

    • I agree about the full black out rooms, we need to make it q bit more fair to cops, they have to kick down a door and can't see where to go, but I think using a tv to hide behind should be okay due to skill cuffs, I have had people complain when I skill cuff them but I think we can have a good middle with each side, make it a bit easier to hit the player and not have a fully blacked out room but have a black wall with a barrier you can hide behind, make it fair for both players,

      I was going to bring this up yesterday because Rae's place is a bit too difficult for cops to have an enjoyable time
      #HailTheGoldenPoon
    • Ant1ion wrote:

      I agree about the full black out rooms, we need to make it q bit more fair to cops, they have to kick down a door and can't see where to go, but I think using a tv to hide behind should be okay due to skill cuffs, I have had people complain when I skill cuff them but I think we can have a good middle with each side, make it a bit easier to hit the player and not have a fully blacked out room but have a black wall with a barrier you can hide behind, make it fair for both players,

      I was going to bring this up yesterday because Rae's place is a bit too difficult for cops to have an enjoyable time
      Where to go is a major factor yes but if they can SEE me and SHOOT me then I should be able to SEE them aswell.

      Skill Cuffing got put back in due to it being fun for cops. Only a limited amount of weapons can skill cuff and most of these houses are set up to prevent the easiest of them, Explosions. Crossbows have to hit the player dead on and if you can't SEE them then it's just that much harder.

      Players mainly complain about Skill Cuffs in the Streets where it's open. Skill Cuffing is way better than Less Than Lethal Ammo was on the player, We have to hit them with a select amount of weapons and swap to the Stunstick. Less Than Lethal was alot more annoying, I prefer Less Than Lethal but not with these new house set ups. Less Than Lethal even got nerf'd, there would be SO much crying if they brought back the old version that slowed you by 95% and lasted until death.