Pinned Wipe the slate clean #Nolimits2016

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    • i think he main issue i have is the prop limit, which i know is a different topic, but its hard to do a lot with only 10-15 props sometimes, maybe yeah you can do more without the tvs but it would be hard to be defensive without people being able to just go straight for you, maybe make it allowed to use the barricades only where there is just a sliver to hit you with, and ban the tv resize, all i say is when theres only 10props (which can seem like a lot but when you are making crouch tunnels and blocking some spots it adds up) you only are limited to do some things without the tvs
      #HailTheGoldenPoon
    • When I'm not jumping from the KFC menu to the roof, I'm usually off bounty hunting. Since I'm new to this server, I've come in at a time where I don't know anything -but- blacked out hideouts. So if this is a somewhat new phenomenon then I can't comment on "how it used to be" as I've nothing to compare it with.

      With that said... I generally enjoy negotiating the mazes, blacked out or otherwise. Although unsuccessfully. In fact, I can only recall one instance where I successfully collected a bounty off of someone holed up in a den, and that was because their weapon was protruding from a blackened fence.

      Every other instance I've either given up, or a cop/someone-wealthier-than-me lobbed in a couple of grenades. Since I am not a cop I am not obligated to hunt them down indefinitely and can walk away after 10 or so attempts. No real skin off of my nose.

      Should it be easier for a rebel to get the bounty? If so then it's awfully unbalanced at the minute. If not, then although difficult, I haven't witnessed a cop -not- being able to apprehend a criminal.

      I don't think it's solely the blackened props that is the problem, but the combination of that and the awkward mazes. Some of the routes aren't even fluid, meaning you have to crouch/jump in rapid succession to glitch your way through. Couple this with total darkness and you're a sitting duck waiting to get popped.

      Haven't a clue how you could define rules around this, as there are virtually endless propping possibilities, but limiting the no. of black props in a room might be worth looking at.

      So from this rebel's perspective, I don't mind it but mainly because I don't have any expectations of actually succeeding. If I should have aspirations of claiming those bountys then maybe this needs to be looked at.

      Edit: Removing unnecessary hyperlink
      :)

      The post was edited 1 time, last by Hooogan ().

    • Well i thing this Black rooms and stuff is rly hard for cops some times ( most time ) even for me and i build most of this stuff xD as the wish for the player .
      And yes i can work without the tvs but i start hear the flame on me if i dont use them . Hm it will be easyer for the cops and harder for the rebels again well maybe it have to be like this .
      Even i Delete my old base just well it was to hart to get in , and if i switch to a cop and try to get some one in they bases its from time to time to hard . Some one like Hand of Doom what i see just play cop give up if he get shot every time but he cant see shit .And what Ant1ion say is right to 10 probs is some time hard to place and cover the player to be safe with no crouch tunnels . But its hard to say if they need more props or so !!! the server crash to much and i think it from the props or maybe im wrong .
    • I have to agree with Volar on this one. All of the points he makes in the above post seem logical and well thought out. I too have put in over 100 hours as cop in the last few weeks , and have seen some players homes outfitted with extremely challenging , if not impossible black-out traps. While I do enjoy the thought and craftmanship put in to these designs , I feel that they are unfair to players(especially newer ones) who have to pay for weapons and ammo. Even with my government issued weapons and ammo , I eventually get tired of getting gunned down repeatedly in the same doorway without any chance of gaining ground.

      I think the game would be more exciting without the over-sized black-out screens for defence. I support #HomeInvasion2016.

      The post was edited 1 time, last by HAND OF DOOM ().

    • Ant1ion wrote:

      i think he main issue i have is the prop limit, which i know is a different topic, but its hard to do a lot with only 10-15 props sometimes, maybe yeah you can do more without the tvs but it would be hard to be defensive without people being able to just go straight for you, maybe make it allowed to use the barricades only where there is just a sliver to hit you with, and ban the tv resize, all i say is when theres only 10props (which can seem like a lot but when you are making crouch tunnels and blocking some spots it adds up) you only are limited to do some things without the tvs

      There's well over 2000 Props. People used to make great things with just 10 props. Crouch Tunnels were either very short or didn't also add in Mazes. It just requires knowing whats out there and whats available. At the moment Prop Count is needed to be 10 / 15 until we can figure out whats causing out Server Up-Time to not be more than 4-9 hours.

      They should be able to go "Straight" to you. Not Straight as in Straight but they should have a clear outline of the house. I'm not against a Maze as long as I can tell where the hell I'm going and be able to atleast see where I'm being shot from.

      I had a house back on Linesse R3 and R4 of the Map with all the old Rules and it was still a bitch for Cops to get to me. They'd have to shoot me dead most the time instead of actually cuffing me. With Skill Cuffs now a thing that house set up would actually be alot easier to cuff me in but the main point was it hindered movement and shots while allowing both players to see one another.

      Hooogan wrote:

      When I'm not jumping from the KFC menu to the roof, I'm usually off bounty hunting. Since I'm new to this server, I've come in at a time where I don't know anything -but- blacked out hideouts. So if this is a somewhat new phenomenon then I can't comment on "how it used to be" as I've nothing to compare it with.

      With that said... I generally enjoy negotiating the mazes, blacked out or otherwise. Although unsuccessfully. In fact, I can only recall one instance where I successfully collected a bounty off of someone holed up in a den, and that was because their weapon was protruding from a blackened fence.

      Every other instance I've either given up, or a cop/someone-wealthier-than-me lobbed in a couple of grenades. Since I am not a cop I am not obligated to hunt them down indefinitely and can walk away after 10 or so attempts. No real skin off of my nose.

      Should it be easier for a rebel to get the bounty? If so then it's awfully unbalanced at the minute. If not, then although difficult, I haven't witnessed a cop -not- being able to apprehend a criminal.

      I don't think it's solely the blackened props that is the problem, but the combination of that and the awkward mazes. Some of the routes aren't even fluid, meaning you have to crouch/jump in rapid succession to glitch your way through. Couple this with total darkness and you're a sitting duck waiting to get popped.

      Haven't a clue how you could define rules around this, as there are virtually endless propping possibilities, but limiting the no. of black props in a room might be worth looking at.

      So from this rebel's perspective, I don't mind it but mainly because I don't have any expectations of actually succeeding. If I should have aspirations of claiming those bountys then maybe this needs to be looked at.

      Edit: Removing unnecessary hyperlink

      Thanks for adding in Hooogan. Alot of the Newer Players have no clue what it used to be like so they are alright with how it is. It's hard to be too upset with something if your take on it is "This is how it's always been."

      I agree it's not just Black Props that are the problem but it is a Major Factor. Using a homes layout to your advantage while placing props into a Maze or Crouch tunnels isn't that bad but when coupled with Resize and Black Out it's just not something that should be happening.

      Now how many players do you see actually playing Cop actively? I mean like 60% or more of their in-game experience is Cop? I'd guess not many mainly due to wanting to make more Cash and when the crime is low theres really nothing to do. Only player I personally see playing Cop other than myself for the most part is Hand Of Doom.


      HAND OF DOOM wrote:

      I have to agree with Volar on this one. All of the points he makes in the above post seem logical and well thought out. I too have put in over 100 hours as cop in the last few weeks , and have seen some players homes outfitted with extremely challenging , if not impossible black-out traps. While I do enjoy the thought and craftmanship put in to these designs , I feel that they are unfair to players(especially newer ones) who have to pay for weapons and ammo. Even with my government issued weapons and ammo , I eventually get tired of getting gunned down repeatedly in the same doorway without any chance of gaining ground.

      I think the game would be more exciting without the over-sized black-out screens for defence. I support WIPE THE SLATE CLEAN #NOLIMITS2016


      Thanks for your input. As a Note though WIPE THE SLATE CLEAN #NOLIMITS2016 was to have this all come about and all props to be tested and used to see. I'm actually sorta the Anti-WIPE THE SLATE CLEAN #NOLIMITS2016.
      Just Not to the full extent as before.

      I'll call this #HomeInvasion2016.

      The post was edited 1 time, last by Volar ().

    • with what doom says, i have been on the rebel side against him more than cop, since hes usually cop, with my base i think sometimes its too hard, i have tried to make it easier but i do agree maybe it is time to make it more fun for cops, i have seen less cops on and maybe if bases were easier to get into we would see more cops that enjoy their job
      #HailTheGoldenPoon
    • To summarize my waffle more succinctly -- Should new players expect to be able to win bounties of holed up players?

      If so, then they current trend of decor makes it virtually impossible. Grenades and crossbows ain't cheap.

      The appeal of the Hitman job is the double bounty, but it's not a lucrative option to new players as winning a bounty is extremely tough.

      Maybe bounty chasing is only for cops and those with extra cash/weapons to inevitably vomit on the floor?

      Edit: What I'm trying to get at is that finding an acceptable middle ground might not only make a cops job a bit easier, but also help readjust the game imbalance of new players coming in, as it would make Hitman a viable option again,
      :)
    • I've had fun testing Ant1ion's designs at his house. It's only natural for him to continue designing more challenging entrances. However , I've also have the advantage of having keys and the time to examine his work from the inside out. It's worth noting that Ant1ion is not an abusive monster but , these designs in the wrong hands could be very discouraging for the average player to combat.
    • Volar wrote:

      eldrun wrote:

      A lot of admins have taken prop defenses too far tbh. No barricade now a day requires skill it just requires ammo in your inventory
      It's more the Player, the Admins are just a tool to place their idea down. We place what they want for their house and maybe give advice but it's what they want for Defense.
      still just look at any of the defenses and imagine the money cops would spend to break in. I've never been a fan of limiting proping but if it's so they can see you and you can't see them due to resize it's a bit overboard.
    • eldrun wrote:

      Volar wrote:

      eldrun wrote:

      A lot of admins have taken prop defenses too far tbh. No barricade now a day requires skill it just requires ammo in your inventory
      It's more the Player, the Admins are just a tool to place their idea down. We place what they want for their house and maybe give advice but it's what they want for Defense.
      still just look at any of the defenses and imagine the money cops would spend to break in. I've never been a fan of limiting proping but if it's so they can see you and you can't see them due to resize it's a bit overboard.
      Don't mistake I'm 100% with you, I was just stating it's not the Admins fault at the moment.

    • "Thanks for adding in Hooogan. Alot of the Newer Players have no clue what it used to be like so they are alright with how it is. It's hard to be too upset with something if your take on it is "This is how it's always been." "

      Is one of the reasons this thread on developing prop rules was started and continued..
      Two other reasons were a). Cheesy said players were going to prop b). Resizing


      The whole idea is to produce RULES that are not needing subjective interpretation.

      For example:- pre resizing, we developed a method of doing the transparency. We had a REFERENCE standard. A certain prop set at a certain value. Anyone could compare the propping with the standard.

      Eas has a simple suggestion - no movement restricting props.


      So - seeing as all decision-making threads here die - , someone make a Rules wording suggestion right now.
      The rest of us will test the semantics and ambiguity etc. We will build samples to test for compliance. Then we can ratify and publish.

      Task: - write the ACTUAL wording of the simple rule for MOTD
      - write the additional info for Wiki. * make it an outline at this stage [for obvious reasons]



      BTW - i like resize for doing things like making the cactus 1.7 times its size; it makes a great table item then.
      BTW - i like resize for covering balcony window/door so long as it doesn't extend outside building.
    • "props may only be resized if they block both sides, tvs and coffins are from resize due to the one sided mirror effect"

      1). there are other one-way vision props
      2). what if they aren't in a vision-blocking situation?
      3). what if two one-ways are overlapped?
      4). are you worried about the shoot-through aspect?
      5). what about applied transparency [and under certain lighting conditions? can make some doors one-way view].
      6). blocked doors, versus opening doors.

      so, first shot at a rewording for MOTD:- resized vision-blocking props must be opaque

      And as part of reasoning to be recorded in Wiki:- I tried to account for points 1,2,3,5. "vision-blocking" is used here as a term relating to player movement. Examples of OK use would be covering a static window or Blocked door. Decision still to be made about an actual [glass/transparent/translucent] door. Ok useage would be putting a resized prop against a blank wall or no-go zone [for decorative reasons].


      OK, guys - does that MOTD suggestion do what Ant wanted? Can you 'break' it?
      I expect some pics in the Wiki.
    • My list would then entail.
      1. Resize may not be used for Defensive Propping unless the Prop is made Transparent to a level that both sides can easily see through or a Prop that Neither Player can see through. Cosmetics are fine.
      2. Propping Defensively should be done in a way so that both players can either A. See and Shoot One another or B. Not be able to shoot each other but the Defending Play could see the Attacking Player.
      3. 0 0 0 255(Black) is prohibited from Color Scheming an entire home unless the Prop Layout doesn't create a Maze or Blackout Room.
      4. Transparency on props needs to be easily identifiable upon entering a room with said prop. If you enter and room and can see the prop then it needs to be at a level that is quick to notice.
      5. You may Block off all but One door to enter your home.
      6. Creating a Defensive Prop set up that makes more Kick-Doors than the house would normally have is Prohibited.
      7. Crouch Tunnels may be used for Defensive Propping as long as it's in accordance to Number 2 above.
      8. Gravity Doors are Prohibited.
      If I need to be more precise then speak up but that would be the list that I personally would like to see in the MOTD.

      Explanation on Defensive Propping.

      Defensive Propping is setting up your home with props that work in your favor against other players. Props that are set up to impede movement or to block view are examples of Defensive Propping.
      If your props give you a clear advantage over Cops or other Rebels breaking into your home through the use of Movement Impairment or Vision Blocking then they are considered Defensive Props.



      #HomeInvasion2016

      The post was edited 1 time, last by Volar: #HomeInvasion2016 ().

    • those are going to have to be worked on [mainly] individually. Some interact but this is going to have to be done slowly one at a time in the open forum. Here are some comments anyway.


      The defensive propping definition [quite a nice one] is still too subjective ...as is "both sides can easily see through" Been there Done that.

      The points you list - for MOTD use the words need to be severely cut.
      As with the one I made from Ant's suggestion.[and I have a mod so that it reflects one of your list too] Try some Do and Do Not constructions. BTW - I would oppose Grouping rules under 'allowed' 'disallowed' headings UNLESS the Do/Do not still appears in each rule.


      for 1). does this produce the same result? : - 1). Defensive Propping 'resize' must meet the min/max Transparency Standard.
      ie Min Transparency would be opaque ie alpha = 255 and Max Transparency would match the Standard ... 863 /db_create models/props_junk/wood_crate001a.mdl 1 with alpha = 100


      for 2). do you mean this? 2). One-way-vision props must not be shoot through.

      re 3). define maze. Eas's def is a 'fake' one. We had a rule that spoke of the number of bends. The rule that was suspended is "Do not make any kind of maze for players."
      So you mean two rules...
      3a). no darkout mazes [meet Colour Standard]
      3b). no darkout rooms [meet Colour Standard]
      [remember - the details are in WIKI - the succicnt rule is in MOTD]


      re 4). We HAD a transparency Reference Standard - it was suspended to discuss resizing.
      It can be reinstated easily for any instance of use of the changecolor command.
      ---- 863 /db_create models/props_junk/wood_crate001a.mdl 1 with alpha = 100 ------

      re 5). already in MOTD..... "All but one entrance can be blocked off.
      The Prop doing the blocking must not intrude on public space." I would add visual intrusion too, and in Wiki that it must be done in a way to deter doorkicks. I would move that second sentence of the rule to Wiki.

      re 6). I would rather see proppers have the challenge. It can't be done that often anyway. Kickdoor price has been lowered to 1/3 of what it was.
      The suspended rule reads "Do not create a situation that produces more lockpicking or kickdoor actions to break into houses than intended."

      re 7). in what way isn't that already covered by 2) ?


      re 8). No GravGunDoors [the defs and examples would be in Wiki]
    • This is a Compile of all the Homes on the Map that use One or more of the above talked about Prop Discussing Items.



      Home - This first home consists of a few Tv Resizes and Blackout Props. This one is actually a light example since it's on the front of the home and he has a small area to fire through. None the less he can clearly see the front door and shoot while any Invader cannot.





      New Home - This home uses a Crouch Tunnel along with Black Out Props and Tv Resizes to make a relatively small apartment into something much better. This one is also not that bad but still blocks view and allows easier kills on the Invader with less chance of being hit. Two Tvs are placed in a way to block bullets while the Resize inhibits vision of the Invader.





      New Home - This home is a lot more tricky. Tv Resize is used to easily see the Invader while the small ''Maze'' allows for longer access shooting the Invader as they have to crouch through it and be unable to see their assailant. The prop in the front and the back are used to stop Skill Cuffs with Nades or other Explosions. In my opinion the Counter Area shouldn't even be part of this players house but that's going off topic.








      New Home - This home goes for maximum movement impairment coupled with Black Out Resized Tvs all over it. As you walk in you can see nothing but the Home Owner can easily see you. Once entered you can not walk anywhere but to the left while the Home Owners can easily shoot you. Once you find the hidden Crouch Tunnel you can then begin making your way to the back all the while the Home Owners are filling you with holes. The Front Fence extends to the ceiling and the back blast proof walls ensure no Nades of Explosions can reach the Home Owner, Even AR Balls have a hard time coming out of the Crouch Tunnel and into the room. The back blast walls also are set up in a way that you cannot head shot the Owners but they can easily head shot the Invaders.











      New Home - This home uses Resized Tvs and Black Out to traverse it. It's a small home and as you can see it's pretty simple to jump right to the back if you know to jump. It however is a one way view due to Tv Resizes and allows easy firing upon the Invader while limiting what the Invader can see.







      New Home - This new home uses Block Out Resized Tvs and overall Black Out Scheme to help defend against Invaders. This home isn't as bad since the Home Owner has a hard time seeing the Invader too.







      New Home - This new home uses Crouch Tunnels with Black Out One Way Tvs to allow the Home Owner to fire upon the Invader with little risk to themselves.













      New Home - This home is the most annoying home to break into. It uses Black Out One Way Tvs with some blast walls and a Crouch Tunnel Light Maze. This is by far the easiest home to defend as AR Balls, Nades and any other explosive weapons have no chance of reaching the Home Owner. The Crouch Tunnel actually has a small blast wall in-front of it to stop you from being able to shoot or see the Home Owner while giving them the ability to Easily Head Shot you. There is also the physical Tv that can't be seen absorbing bullets meant for the Home Owner.












      New Home - Just Gravity Door - This home is just demonstrating a Gravity Door and how a Cop has to use the Gravity Gun thus being Defenseless while trying to enter.





      New Home - Just Gravity Door - This home is just demonstrating a Gravity Door and how a Cop has to use the Gravity Gun thus being Defenseless while trying to enter.






      New Home - This home uses Black Out Resized Tvs to hide the Home Owner behind a Light Maze of fences as they're able to fire upon you. Bright side is there isn't too many other props blocking so the only thing you really have to deal with is not being able to see the Home Owner. Cuffing them on the other hand is still very difficult due to not being able to see them and blasts not reaching that far back.





      To Be Continued in next post.

      The post was edited 2 times, last by Volar ().

    • Continued from post above.

      New Home - This home uses Black Out Resized Tvs with Crouch Tunnel Fences and blast walls to allow the Home Owner to fire upon any Invaders while heavily blocking the Invaders aim with walls. Invaders also have all Visibility blocked thus making it even harder to get the bounty or acquire the cuff.












      New Home - This home uses Black Out Resized Tv and a Crouch Tunnel. This one also allows for easy firing between the Home Owner and Invader but heavily skewed in the Home Owners favor with the use of the Resized Tvs completely blocking the Invaders visibility.







      New Home - This home uses Black Out Resized Tvs as-well as some Crouch Holes and blast walls. This home for the most part is fair to both sides but still skewing in the favor of the Home Owner. The props are set up in a way that neither player if at the front and back respectively can fire upon one another. Towards the middle of overall "Mini-Maze'' it blocks view while allowing the Home Owner to open fire unhindered.











      That's all of the player homes on the map that have Resizes or Major Defensive Props that I was speaking about in posts before these two.

      Lets get some more discussion and feel free to ask questions.



      #HomeInvasion2016

      The post was edited 1 time, last by Volar ().