A Better Way to Serve Punishment

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  • A Better Way to Serve Punishment

    After playing for several months I have come to the conclusion that there is just to much variance in Admin discretion when it comes to doing things to get yourself kicked, banned or having cop revoked.
    I don't have anything against the admin's, just feel as there should to be a more fair, and consistent punishment.

    A few examples Paul Blart got cop stripped for 6 months for pushing boxes off the roofs,
    Chyna got banned for 2 months for killing a box, he appealed and got a much more reasonable 2 weeks.
    or Templar Knight having all his Cop Xp stripped from 1200 to 300

    Admin discretion seems to be a failure due to lack of consistency between admins and the justness if the punishment.

    the factors that should be taken into are
    number of times the offense occurs and the time since the last offense or the number of offenses within a give time frame like 6 months.


    We need the system to have predetermined punishment and duration

    for instance lets take killing boxes, all withing a 6 month period

    command /boxkilling someDumpass


    1st offense kicked
    2nd offense 30 min banned
    3rd offense 1 hr banned
    4th offense 12 hr banned
    5th offense 1 day ban
    6th offense 5 day ban
    7th offense 2 week ban
    8th offense 1 month ban
    9th offense 2 month ban
    and so on


    Notice each more than the last,
    also if each offense was stored in the database then we are free of admins from having to check and research

    Also all punishment would be fair as it is not inflated by the fact an admin does not like someone or the admin is in a bad mood.

    By doing it this way we would always know what the offense was, the offender and the entire community,
    there are some that simply say ni**er
    look at this photo below

    Untitled.png
  • Doom news flash many people do not respect you because of your petty insults, what I find interesting is Nemo brings up 3 cases where an admins bans or punishments are clearly too much for the crime,
    yet you never address this just regurgitate what you always say, every situation is different. here is the thing for 90 - 95 % it is not different, player is doing something he or she is not supposed to and an admin tells them not to do it, or the admin knows player has been told and punished in the past. either way the the result is something like /ban playersname 1 month 'killing boxes'. and the admins do not strictly follow a doubling. Not even talking about me, how many times did Paul or Templar have their cop hindered prior to their punishment. Quite extreme
  • exactly elrun, thats why an automated system should be coded out to hammer this. that way
    the punishment for a person that kills a under 10 hr box for the 1st time in 2 years gets a few hours where
    someone using an exploit for the 4th time in 3 months is banned for a few weeks,

    a system like this would also be 100% free of Admin bias
  • this has been a issue for ages but i completely agree with Nemo there needs to be some kind of structure with the bans/strips not whatever the admin members decides at the time of ban. petty rule breaks = short but continuous lengthy bans if those petty rules are being broken over and over and for more serious rule breaks = more of lenghty ban than those of petty ones. its pretty simple to differentiate a simple rule break over a serious one (ex. SOC,door blocking,spamming from glitch exploits, aimbot, wallhacks) this goes for the staff as well if a admin abuses their power they should be stripped for whatever the reason is just like the players.
    [img width=300 height=300]http://mrwgifs.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/06/Angry-Meme-Gif-Expresses-His-Feelings.gif[/img][size=8pt][12:34 AM] [???] Vegeta :  i have big plans for u candy[/size]
  • Okay so you’d like us to make a spreadsheet with the thirty five rules we have (I counted). With three severity levels, ten repeat offense levels, and then we’d have to rank each rules importance 1-35, if you don’t take into account the combination of rule breaks that’s 36,750 different durations of ban lengths.

    obviously there should be some structure but you cannot hardcode all this shit and be fair.
  • actually you code it to a database, it is a simple rules engine no different than a permission based engine,
    each rule carries a weight, each instance of breaking it is the weight weight times a value

    and can be added to other instances, it is actually simple you just need an hour to agree with the initial settings and then go from there

    Any seasoned software dev could code this out in a few hours to a day or 2,

    100% database driven
  • As much sense as it would make to standardize punishments, there\s a ton of other things that weigh into a ban than what level of offense it is. Say this person breaks the box killing rule and gets the first one, then they go and break a different rule than the first one, would it be a first offence or second offense? As for everything else, the current system has lasted the test of time, if a ban seems too harsh there is a ban appeal section where it can be appealed. And when that happens its not just one admin looking at it. Also wouldn't it make sense to just not break the rules at all? If your not breaking any server rules then you shouldn't have to worry about the admins punishing you. And if you didn't break a rule and got banned, there is an admin abuse section. Just make sure to have proof.
  • MeTaL ^x^ wrote:

    As much sense as it would make to standardize punishments, there\s a ton of other things that weigh into a ban than what level of offense it is. Say this person breaks the box killing rule and gets the first one, then they go and break a different rule than the first one, would it be a first offence or second offense? As for everything else, the current system has lasted the test of time, if a ban seems too harsh there is a ban appeal section where it can be appealed. And when that happens its not just one admin looking at it. Also wouldn't it make sense to just not break the rules at all? If your not breaking any server rules then you shouldn't have to worry about the admins punishing you. And if you didn't break a rule and got banned, there is an admin abuse section. Just make sure to have proof.
    I do agree with this post - its not as black and white the initial post makes it sound. However, yall dont have to be such a jerk to people trying to state their opinions cough cough.
  • I disagree with Metal and the other admins here, any factor for a ban or any punishment can be stored in the database and taken into consideration.
    it is a rules engine, it can take all the other recent bans into consideration.

    As for the current system has stood the test of time, that is another way of saying this is how we have always done it.
    Anyone in IT will tell you those are the most dangerous words.
    Coding it properly (mostly sql), could have the system look at

    ill spell it out

    each offense is a type,
    so per eldrum there are 35 so 35 records in a type table

    each record is giving a weight 1-10, 1 being slap on the wrist and 10 being a ban is in order

    when a person is punished the query gets top 1 most recent of all ban types for the last say 6 months
    adds the new ban record and then figures out a collation of the other banns to get a score
    and based on that score the ban comes into play

    this can all be done in a database and be made data driven in the DB
    to make it easier to tweek
  • i could make hardcoded bans but i can absolutely guarantee none of you would like it

    anyway i wanted to go through the examples nemo gave since they were all my punishments (lol)

    paul - cop strips are the only area where i tend to go higher since being a cop is a privilege we give to players and being a dick with it intentionally is basically just spitting on us for giving it to them. so cop strips are always in the 3 months to 1 year range, they always have been for intentional douchebaggery with no remorse.

    china - was banned for 2 months because as doom said we follow a doubling system, every time a player is banned for doing something they've done before their ban will be double the last one. since chinas last box kill ban was a month he got 2 months. which he appealed and got shortened, which brings me to another point; punishments are never finite. a player can always appeal whatever they were punished for and if admins feel it is unfair the punishment will be reduced/revoked. syle or volar can undo anything for any reason and they do.

    templar - he was stripped one rank, if he had 4200 xp he still would have been set to 3500. i dont understand how this is unfair given that the same punishment would've applied to any other cop who had done the same thing.


    the entire point of having admin discretion is that every situation is different and every admin is different, there cannot be consistency in a system that requires discretion.
  • Doggy thank you for proving Nemo and mines point, every admin is different and in there lies the real problem. and i disagree there can be consistency in a system that requires discretion,
    certainly as a coder you should be able to see how once all the relevant data points are input, the punishment can be computed in an unbiased manner

    I will be blunt, seems that there is a combination of 1) i dont want to give up my power
    and 2) some of us are lazy to even try
  • From the conversations I listened to and the input in this post, I believe china and nemo are trying to find a way to hold admins more accountable for certain decisions. I don't think that this system being provided would help with accountability for admins that they are trying to achieve. Although this system could be implemented, I also feel that it will still generate the same amount of complaints. At the end of the day with this kind of subject, there will always be people unhappy with whatever system gets put in place. But at the end of the day, this system would be much smoother if there was less people breaking the rules. In fact if the server wants everything to be more black and white, I think the punishments should be more severe. If the punishment is more severe, then people are less likely to break it. If people have set punishments, they are more likely to weigh whether or not breaking that rule is worth breaking. And if it's more severe they are less likely to break that rule. This is why I think admins discretion is still a better system, because it allows them to weigh in on the gray factors. I also feel veteran players should be held to a higher standard than newer players, and this should also weigh in how heavy of a punishment they get. Just like players have high standards of admins and cops, I feel high standards should also be held on vets alike.
  • @MeTaL ^x^,

    It really has nothing to do with holding admins accountable, that's not the topic. Personally I have never had a ban, so not looking for any personal gain.
    I don't have anything against any of the admins, I'm not trying to attack the admins in anyway and I don't want it to seem like that.

    I'm just stating and idea from the recent events, and not just with China. Look at Ruffneck, he almost always gets a slap on the wrist with every incident.
    I just think it would be a good idea for a better system that has to be followed and to make it fair for all. Yes admin discretion will always have to be a factor,
    yes every incident may be different in sense.

    Sorry I started such a heated subject.
  • Ok, I went back and forth on this… and was going to post in Admin channel, but here is my response for all to see... warts and all. Grab a beer, it’s a long walk, lol.

    After reading all the chatter on bans, purported admin abuse, and toxic players, I have to admit, first I was drawn to the concept of a rule-based punishment server that eliminates the potential for uneven application of punishment/bans, etc. But I decided to not weigh in during the fray, and sleep on it before I responded (many players asked me what my opinion was, and said “I have to think about it”). After re-reading all of these posts today, I realized that there is a giant hole in the “Automated Justice Dispenser” idea:

    One leading idea put forward was that by automating the crime and punishment calculation, it takes all emotion and bias away from the admin, and deals out an even-handed amount of punishment, so people know what to expect, and thus act as a deterrent towards the perpetrators, sort of like in real life. However… that DOES NOT reflect a real life legal system at all. In nearly any legal system, regardless of country or culture, the punishments levied are not purely formulaic, but may have a “degree” system rating applied to them first ( 1st degree murder, 2nd degree murder, manslaughter degrees, larceny, petit larceny, blah blah..), and then each of these items, once categorized, are subject to a “ranged” amount of punishment. Death penalty, 20 yrs to life, 7 years, eligible for parole, or not… it goes on.

    So even in real life, because of the emotional effect of crime on the victims and society, we ALLOW for some amount of “emotional tuning” in our dispensation of justice. This means that a judge (think admin) can weigh all the evidence (player posts, videos, etc…) and tune the response and the punishment (ban length) is never truly known to the perp until it’s done. Is this perfect? Nope. Does this insert some uncertainty into how badly a bad actor will be thrashed? Yup. Sort of like real life already, isn’t it?

    So… in summary, the system we have is imperfect, can and is occasionally abused, but absolutely does not pander to the 1% of trolls and bad actors on the server who want everything spelled out so precisely that they can play the edges, game the admins, and drag the server down into the muck. Good regular players are generally unaffected. It requires no maintenance, no database, and keeps the douchebaggery to a minimum if you know that if you are a repeat offender and troll an admin, we may just fuck your shit up. Don’t forget that right smack in the middle of the “Rebel Rules” on the WIKI it says “Respect all Admin's Decisions”, that does not give admins license to do what they please, but for “those things undefined” it gives us the means to deal with the unexpected or uncategorized offenses. I don’t know about the rest of you, but I don’t get paid for this, and I like to come here to have fun like the rest of you. Anyone who takes that away from me should and will get slapped (1st round), and if they make a habit of it, I will double my response (2nd round)… do it again and my response may be disproportionately severe. History has shown that people don’t like disproportional responses, but the people that see that response generally deserve it as they are taking away from our fun anyway.

    IMO, a general 1st time offense guideline for admins would be appropriate, with the caveat that 2nd offense =2x, and 3rd is a re-doubling, or admins discretion based on severity (I admit, yes this could be codified in highly simplified kick/ban UI if anyone felt compelled to code it). Admins should try and be level headed and look at the ban history when you deal out 1st or 2nd rounds of punishment (try to follow doubling rules), log your response for other admins to see, and don’t engage in arguments on the server with players after you deal the punishment to a player (in chat or on-mic). To quote a horrible saying “arguing online is like being in the special Olympics… even if you win, you’re still a retard”. Horribly inappropriate, but pretty much spells it out.

    My 2¢, thanks for reading if you made it to the end

    --ThunderShorts
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